Navy Seal Thom Shea on Unbreakable: A Navy SEAL’s Way of Life

Audio Transcription

 

Clay Clark:
Yes, and yes. Thrive nation, on today’s show we have an incredible guest. And Z, I am so honored to have this guy on the show. He is what we would call a Navy SEAL.

Dr. Z:
A big deal.

Clay Clark:
Which stands for Sea, Air and Land. These guys are the elite of elite. He’s a highly decorated Navy SEAL with years of combat experience who’s agreed to take time out of his schedule to share with us about what it’s like to be a Navy SEAL. That unbreakable resolve that they all have. Thom Shea, I am just honored to have you on the show. How are you, sir?

Thom Shea:
Thanks for having me on, and I love that intro. That’s unique.

Clay Clark:
Now Thom, I am just so fascinated with your career and I’d like to start off at the bottom, or at the beginning before you became a SEAL. What was your childhood like, and when did you first decide that you wanted to serve in the military?

Thom Shea:
Starting at the bottom is probably appropriate. I grew up in a military family. My dad was a West Point grad, and I grew up around a lot of combat vets from World War II and Vietnam. And I grew up at a time in Southern Indiana where you could carry a gun when you were a kid, and I ran a trap line when I was 10. And I grew up outside, so not that I was actually thinking about SEALs at that point, but I grew up kind of hard.

Thom Shea:
The next step when I grew up to a later age was to take it to the next level.

Clay Clark:
When did you get the vision that you could actually be, or want to be a Navy SEAL. Because Z, I’m not sure if you’re aware of this, but being part of the Navy SEALs program is tough.

Dr. Z:
Ya think?

Clay Clark:
Yeah. So, when did you decide that you wanted to do that?

Thom Shea:
Well I came about it like you said, from the bottom. I had gone to West Point for three years and failed out after my junior year. It took me 20 years to talk about that openly, but I’d hit what I’d call a sandy bottom. I went back home and one of my mentors at the time who was a combat vet from World War II, who was a SEAL in World War II before it was called a SEAL, he said, “Now that you have nothing to lose, what would you like to do?” And I said, “Pat, I’ve always wanted to be a SEAL like you were.” And he said, “You know what I’d recommend is you pursue that until it either falls apart or you make it.” He goes, “Nothing worse having regrets in life.” So at age 20 I said to myself, “I’m going to go be a SEAL.”

Clay Clark:
For the listeners out there that aren’t familiar with the branches of the military, can you explain to us briefly how the branches of the military are organized? And the history of the SEAL program? I’m not trying to paint you into a corner and ask you for specific dates, but just for the listeners out there. We have a lot of business owners out there who salute the flag and appreciate what you do, but they’re not really familiar with how the branches of the military are organized, or just the history of the SEAL program.

Thom Shea:
There are really three branches of the military. The Army, the Air Force, and the Navy. The Navy has under it the Marine Corps and the Coast Guard. The Coast Guard I think is separated now, and it works for the Homeland Security. But that being the case, three major branches, one off shoot being the Marine Corps. And each of those branches have specialties. Air Force has several special programs, and the Army has the Rangers and the Green Beret, and Delta Force. The Navy has the SEAL program and SEAL Team Six.

Clay Clark:
So, talk to me about SEAL TEAM Six. How many teams do you have in the SEAL program?

Thom Shea:
The SEALS, they have an east and west variant to the group, if you will. The odd numbered SEAL teams, one, three, five and seven are on the west coast. Two, four, eight and 10 are on the east coast. And SEAL Team Six is also on the east coast, and it’s a special program within the SEAL teams.

Clay Clark:
For every person that is in the military, how many SEALs do you have? Is it like a one in one thousand shot?

Thom Shea:
Oh my gosh-

Clay Clark:
10 thousand?

Thom Shea:
So as a comparison for everybody that’s listening, there are around 24 thousand Green Beret, and there’s only two thousand SEALs.

Clay Clark:
Two thousand SEALs?

Thom Shea:
And those are active duty right now as we speak, give or take 100. But the program is so difficult to get through that since inception to now, only 15% make it through the basic training.

Clay Clark:
I’ve tried to go online and really nerd out this past month here, since you agreed to be on the show. I’m watching these documentaries, the untold secrets of the Navy SEALs. They’ve got the A&E special on the SEALs.

Clay Clark:
Z, I get nervous, scared, worn out. I almost want to quit just watching it. I’m like, “Ah, this is- I can’t handle it.”

Dr. Z:
I’m nauseous. Yeah.

Clay Clark:
Uncle! Uncle!

Dr. Z:
I had a question to ask him, but I’m almost too scared to ask him now.

Clay Clark:
Well Thom, I want to ask you something. When you are going through this program, it’s so grueling it’s legendary, could you share with us an overview of the Navy SEAL training program? And maybe, what’s the hardest part of that program?

Thom Shea:
Well, it took me five times to make it through.

Clay Clark:
Wow.

Thom Shea:
They don’t let people do that anymore. Not that it damages them. At the time when I was going through, they couldn’t get enough SEALs. Now there’s so many people trying to get in, it changed it. So the SEAL program, the BUDS. Basic Underwater Demolition Seal. That’s the basic pipeline, or first part of the program. It lasts about six months, and there are three phases to it. The first phase, which is the notorious phase, is just we want to beat you up and see who comes out the other end. And that culminates with a week called hell week, and I’m sure you guys want to hear about that.

Clay Clark:
I do. We do. No, seriously. This is what we want to hear.

Thom Shea:
And the dive phase is the second phase. They teach you how to drown. And if you don’t drown, then you graduate. And then third phase is, teach you how to shoot and navigate and blow stuff up.

Clay Clark:
Sweet.

Thom Shea:
And then you graduate basic training and you go into another five month program. And then you report to your SEAL team, and then you go through another 18 month program before you can deploy.

Clay Clark:
Thom, what’s so special about SEAL Team Six? When you were going through the SEAL teams, you were like, “They’re a special kind of subgroup.” What do they do that the others don’t do, or can you tell us?

Thom Shea:
Yeah. So the special operations part of the military own the SEALs, and they work for what they called SOCOM. So all the SEAL teams work for SOCOM. And then SEAL Team Six and Delta Force, which is a different name now, I can’t remember what it is, CAG I think it is, they work solely for the President. They’re called a national asset. It’s more of a chain of command issue, it’s like who the president of the company is. And the president of SEAL Team Six is the President. And they are tasked by the President. To get into that program you had to have been a SEAL for four years, and then you go through another high attrition rate selection course to see if they want you at the team. I think they still have about a 50% fail rate there.

Clay Clark:
So if I took a dozen Green Berets, a dozen Rangers, a dozen Delta Force, a dozen SEALs, a dozen, I think I covered them all.

Dr. Z:
A lot of dozens.

Clay Clark:
And we did like a West Side Story, it’s just a brawl. Who’s going to win that brawl?

Thom Shea:
I don’t know if it’s a matter of fighting. They never teach you how to fight. They teach you how to use all the resources at your disposal, so you don’t have to actually get into a fight.

Dr. Z:
You just blow them up. It’s like, they just blow up.

Thom Shea:
I don’t want to fight somebody. I’ll shoot them from a mile away and be really happy and content.

Dr. Z:
There you go. Okay, well you answered that question. Okay.

Clay Clark:
Now during your training program, do you recall a time in the SEAL training program where you thought to yourself, “I want to quit. I’m going through the SEAL training program and I want to- ” Where was the low point? The point where you thought, “I’m going to tap out.” But then you just didn’t do it, but what was the absolute worst part?

Thom Shea:
Everybody that goes through it, even the ones that quit say they don’t really want to do it on a daily basis. It’s that tough, and it gets increasingly harder and harder. You actually want to quit on a daily basis, you just don’t give in to it, or you quit. The lowest time doesn’t actually come from training, it comes on the weekends when you’re licking your wounds and you’re thinking about, “I don’t know if I want to do another week or month or year of this crap.” The low times always come when there’s not somebody in your face. When you have to live with your own demons, so to speak. And that’s when most people quit, is on the weekend. Very few people quit when things are hard, it’s only when they have time to think about it.

Clay Clark:
Why? Why did you want to be a SEAL so much? I mean, because you guys are defending us. I’ve never met you before. Z and I, between the two of us we have eight kids, great families. We’re safe because of your sacrifices. What made you want to do that?

Thom Shea:
It represented to me the only thing left where it was strictly performance based. If you can do the work, that’s how you’re judged. You’re not judged on if you look pretty or your background, or black or white or green. And at the time I had just failed out of West Point, and I’m like, “God, I’m never going to recover.” What’s available? And I thought, I was a good athlete. I was thinking about the Olympics. And then I’m like, “I don’t want to do that.” And I was a good shooter, and to get into a good shooting program costs tons of money. And I’m like, “What’s left?” I’m good at outside, and as long as I can do the work, the program will keep embracing you. And I thought, “Well, I’ll give that a try.” And that was one of the big reasons, was it was strictly performance oriented.

Clay Clark:
So you are training for all this time, and then you get the call that you’re going to be deployed. What does it feel like emotionally once you’ve made it through the program, and then you find out you’re being deployed? Do you recall that emotion of that moment, knowing that you’re going to actually have to use all these skills you’ve bene training for?

Thom Shea:
Yeah. It’s interesting how you asked the question. The answer may not be what will satisfy you. It’s actually a relief. Everybody in the SEALs want to go on deployment. And the training is so hard you’re like, “God, give me a break. I’d rather go into combat where everything is very clear.” Combat is very clear. It’s not stressful, it’s the only time you can win. And in training they never let you win, so to be called in to actually use the skills and the tools that you’ve been trained to use, is a relief. And I know that answer is not what you’d expect, but that’s the truth about most people who like combat.

Clay Clark:
And I want to be super respectful. Z, obviously when you and I, we’ve even talked about playing paintball or dodge ball, I get scared. These guys are seeing live combat. I’m serious. Z’s like, “Hey, why don’t we go downhill skiing?” I’m like, “I don’t want to attempt that. I’m a little bit worried about it.” I don’t know. Safety first. So, I’m wearing a helmet in the studio right now just for safety precautions, and you guys put your life in harm’s way on a daily basis. So, if I ask anything here that’s kind of over the line, just hang up on me and I’ll get that subtle clue.

Thom Shea:
All right.

Clay Clark:
You get deployed and you’re flying over to Afghanistan. I believe you’re seated in a C5 transport aircraft, according to your book?

Thom Shea:
Yeah. Yep.

Clay Clark:
SEAL Team Seven. Task Unit Trident in Bravo platoon. You’re flying to another, as you put it, “God forsaking country.” Could you explain to us the mindset of what the men in the plane are thinking, or what conversations you’re having as you are flying to another God forsaking country to put your life at risk to protect the freedoms of people you’ve never met?

Thom Shea:
That’s the hardest part. You would think there is steely eyed resolve. It’s not. It’s the waiting game that is brutal. You know you gotta get there, and the time delays to get there. It took us a week to get there because the [inaudible 00:13:46] plane fell apart every time we landed. So what becomes difficult to even communicate is, you begin to lose resolve. You’re like, “God, what am I doing? Is this the right thing? Are my kids going to be okay?” I have three kids and a wife. So you’re dwelling on all the bad things, and you just want to get going. It’s like right before the Super Bowl. You’re like, “Dude, let’s just get out and throw the ball.” We got to do something, but you’re not allowed to. You’re just sitting there. To me, it’s the most difficult time of the deployment, is the waiting game of trying to get in theater.

Clay Clark:
Just to give our listeners some perspective, how big is a C5 transport? How many people are on the plane?

Thom Shea:
Boy, they’re big. You can put a offshore racing boat, or you can put a tank in it. And so, at that point I think we had 60 men and 20 pallets of all our combat gear on the plane. There’s seats on the side and then when it takes off, unlike civilian aircraft, you can get up and walk around. Guys are stringing up hammocks on top of the pallets and just laying there waiting.

Clay Clark:
Yeah. What went through your mind? You guys land, you get set up, then you get your first mission and you’re out. When was the first time you squeezed off a round, or what did you think the first time you actually got into combat?

Thom Shea:
That wasn’t my first, in Afghanistan it was three days. We were three days on the ground, but that wasn’t my first combat. But three days on the ground and we were shooting at the Taliban.

Clay Clark:
Yeah. So your first time, can you tell us where that was? Your first time for combat.

Thom Shea:
I would say it was in Iraq, two years prior to that in 2007.

Clay Clark:
Okay. What did that feel like? What went through your mind?

Dr. Z:
Yeah. When you first went into contact with the enemy.

Clay Clark:
Yeah. What did that feel like?

Thom Shea:
Well you know, I have to preface that. So, I grew up hunting. In my brain, killing is not what it is in other people’s brains. So if you’re a hunter, you know that the process of hunting is a lot of waiting and patience, and then all of a sudden you get one shot. And in combat, it’s the waiting game. It’s not as scary. It’s actually, like I said earlier, it’s a relief to actually be doing what you’ve been trained to do. And the scaredness, not been a time in combat that I could say I was scared.

Clay Clark:
Do things slow down or speed up whenever you’re starting to squeeze that trigger?

Thom Shea:
Very slow. It slows down for me. Crippling slow. Like my body is at 100 miles an hour, my brain is processing things very rapidly, and it seems to be going in slow motion. And maybe that’s why people survive combat. But to me, I’m moving really fast and the world is moving slow.

Clay Clark:
You wrote in your book that your wife Stacy said to you, she said, “Thom, I need you to come back to us. Do not fear dying. Fear makes you weak.” What were you thinking when she said that?

Thom Shea:
Yeah. That’s I think the most important thing that I experienced, was her saying that. And it culminated at month three in Afghanistan where we were overrun by the Taliban, meaning there were 38 of them and 6 of us. We got our [inaudible 00:17:32] kicked. No other way to say that. And it was overwhelming. And I had been, not blown up but an RPG hit and blew me inside of this room and I was laying there on the ground and I was like, “I’m dead.” I couldn’t move. The only thing that popped me out of that was just reflecting on a lot of things, and I remember my wife saying right before I went on deployment, “Don’t fear dying, it makes you weak. And fight.” I stood up in half a second. I’m like, “Well, I can fight.” And I rallied as best I could and culminated in us killing 38 Taliban.

Dr. Z:
Wow.

Clay Clark:
When you were over there, can you just explain the kind of conversations that you’re having with the guys when you’re killing? I have friends over there that have served in the Army now, not in the SEALs, who have told me that there is sort of this hurry up and wait. And he was telling me, “We were like throwing footballs for days sometimes, because there is nothing going on.” And then he said, “Then all of a sudden you’ll hear something, or all of a sudden the whole dynamic will change and immediately we’re called into action.” And he said, “That’s kind of how we just lived.” Could you explain what kinds of conversations were you guys having? The ones that you can share on a podcast.

Thom Shea:
Yeah. Well, the SEALs are a unique breed. You got to remember, by that time it was 20 years of training. And the platoon I was with, I had been with for four years, most of them. During stressful situations, pros don’t talk about the situation. It’s really hard to explain, and our conversations would be about girls and, “Hey, throw me a can of Copenhagen.” And, “God, this water tastes like [inaudible 00:19:27].” In the middle of a firefight, because it’s so stressful you cannot dwell on , “Oh my God. There’s 38 of them.” But you just mentally kind of think of other things. It doesn’t make sense to people, but that’s how I look back and explain it. And I fought it when I was a new SEAL. I’m like, “Why is everybody not talking about what’s going on?” And one of the veteran SEALs is like, “You don’t talk about that stuff. Just talk about fun things.”

Clay Clark:
Do you guys keep track? Or did you guys keep track? Is it a competitive thing, where you keep track of kills versus the enemy? Do you keep track of that? Is that something you want to talk about?

Thom Shea:
Aw, man. This is such a contentious situation. I am a tracker. I keep track of everything.

Clay Clark:
Okay.

Thom Shea:
And, I did.

Clay Clark:
My buddy did. My buddy said that he definitely did.

Thom Shea:
Yeah. My tenant didn’t like it and I said, “Hey, these guys are meat eaters. They want to know how many shots and who got what.” So we had a platoon tally that we had, much to the dismay of our officers.

Clay Clark:
What were the atrocities that you saw over there? Where you say, “I’m glad we fought against that because if you American’s saw that, you would definitely want us to fight for that.” Again, you see the news. You watch Fox, you see CNN. You see all these news publications, news media, and everyone has their own bias. We’ve never been over there. What are some things that you saw Thom, where you said, “You know, that is why we were over there. That’s why we were fighting.”

Thom Shea:
Well I don’t know if it answers, “That’s why we were fighting.” I try to explain it this way. In the movie Wizard of Oz when Dorothy had to tap her heels together and say, “I wish I was home.” Or whatever she said. Imagine clicking your heels together and say, “Hey, I wonder what it would be like 3000 years ago.” And whack, you end up in Afghanistan.

Clay Clark:
Wow.

Thom Shea:
It’s that old, so their culture is so far removed from what you experience on a daily basis. I don’t understand. What are they doing? It makes sense to them, but it does not make sense in the mind of an American who has a house. They don’t even have furniture, which was a complete frustration for everybody. Like, “Oh, where’s the chairs?” Oh, we got to sit on the floor. They sit on the floor.

Thom Shea:
The atrocities are the lifestyles that they lead on a daily basis. Like, we didn’t see atrocities. We were the atrocious people there. We went in, and we don’t knock and are happy people. So we went in there, and we had to go in there and were dictated to kill Taliban. And that’s what we did.

Clay Clark:
Now in your book you wrote, “To hell with post traumatic stress. Pre traumatic stress is far worse.” I really, really would love to have you-

Dr. Z:
Yeah. Break that down.

Clay Clark:
To break that down. That right there is a knowledge bomb for some of our listeners out there. That is powerful. What do you mean by that?

Thom Shea:
It’s the not knowing what’s going to happen. Most athletes stress out before the game, or before the tournament, or whatever they’re in. You guys say you started up a lot of businesses. The not knowing is the tough part. Are we going to be good enough? Is somebody going to die? What am I going to do? Am I going to be in the right mindset? Was I enough? The not knowing is horrible. And then when you’re back pre deployment trying to think about all these things and be a family man and prepare yourself, it’s 10 times more stressful. It’s tough on the family because you’ve already checked out. Mentally you’re already in combat, but you’re home. SEALs don’t normally have post traumatic stress after the situation because they’re constantly in training and combat is just a relief. The three or four percent that have it, they get it when they cannot relay their topic or their mindset to the people that they’re with. But in pre deployment, you’re sitting there trying to go, “Oh my gosh. Why am I sitting here watching my kid spill stuff? I should be over in combat.” It causes a lot of stress. I don’t know if I unpacked that well, but-

Clay Clark:
No, no. I’m just endlessly curious about this. In your book you talked about you have this dog handler. The best dog handler out there. This guy, he’s like the highest ranking explosive ordinance disposal warrant officer expert in the Navy. This guy’s job is to, can you explain what this guy’s job is to do for you guys?

Thom Shea:
I probably didn’t make a clear point in the book, but those are two separate people. We had a really, really experienced dog handler, and his job was to use his dog to sniff out bombs or drugs, or attack with the dog. And our explosive ordinance guy was a warrant officer, and he had already been in 20 years and he had forgotten more about bombs than I even know. And their job, I still don’t like their job. The only job in the world I wouldn’t want to do is go in and deal with explosives, because when something goes wrong, it’s wrong. Big style. But he was the calmest guy in the world. He also never talked about what he was doing, which is a sign of professionalism in the community is you don’t talk about it.

Clay Clark:
I’m not asking for a specific number because I’m sure it’s classified, but I just want to ask what kind of damage can 30 SEALs do against terrorists, or people that you are attacking in Afghanistan? I mean, 30 guys, what kind of damage could you-

Dr. Z:
Well, we know what six can do. Yeah. What kind of damage could 30 SEALs do?

Thom Shea:
It’s actually a number that’s written down. It’s a 10 multiplier. If you use 30, you 10 times that and that’s who you should be able to go up against. So, 30 to 300.

Clay Clark:
So the six to 38, they could have had another 22 people there. I mean, I’m surprised you were overwhelmed. You should have been kind of almost underwhelmed. Did they not know [crosstalk 00:26:19]?

Thom Shea:
That mission I actually, two of us got a silver star for that mission.

Clay Clark:
That’s so cool.

Thom Shea:
It was overwhelming.

Clay Clark:
Was it a surprise attack? Or, what happened?

Thom Shea:
Well it was overwhelming. What was overwhelming about it is that we ran out of food, water and ammo.

Clay Clark:
Oh, man. So, was it a surprise attack? Give me the set up of it.

Thom Shea:
Yeah.

Clay Clark:
Because that’s a fascinating story.

Thom Shea:
Yeah. We went in the night before, a four mile hike into the mountains. We were in a fire fight the whole four miles. It took us seven hours to move four miles.

Clay Clark:
Wow.

Thom Shea:
And then we hit the main target area, and another fire fight ensues. We hold up that whole day, sporadic fire throughout the day and then our commander says, “Hey, we’re going to pick you up two hours after dark.” So that period of time, which I hate that, when you know something is about ready to end. We literally all dropped our guard all at the same time. And I had taken my body armor off and my back was up against the wall. I was sitting there getting ready to go. I had just taken a break and I look up at a hilltop about 600 yards away, and it looks like red bees flying at me. Everything slows down. I duck out of the way and all the bullets hit right where I was just leaning up against the wall. I’m rolling out into the courtyard and the bullets are following me, and I look up at a window and I jump into the window and an RPG follows me into the room and blows up.

Thom Shea:
I didn’t know that it had followed me in. I just jumped into the air and I ended up jumping 12 foot through the air and hit the wall, laying on the ground. Whether I got knocked out, I don’t think I did. But I’m just laying there watching everything. Bullets are hitting in the room and a bullet is rotating right in front of my face on the ground. And I remember going, “Oh, God. I’m dead.” And my body was going, “Yep. You’re just going to sit here.” And I couldn’t rally. And then my wife in my mind said, “Don’t fear dying. Stand up.” I rallied and ended up shooting a guy on the hilltop that had me pinned down, and after a 45 minute fire fight ensues, we run out of ammo. We shot 38 mortar rounds and threw all of our grenades over the wall, and all the 40 millimeter we had. And that was the end. We ran out of everything.

Thom Shea:
And a B1 bomber checks on, and we orient him to drop his bombs everywhere around us. And so he pursues that order, and bombs are going off blowing up everything and kind of bury us in rubble, so to speak. We all survived, and it looked like the dark side of the moon when we kind of all rallied and got our composure. But then our boss said, “Hey, you’re going to have to stay out there another day.” That next day was brutal, because we had all kind of given up. But he decided to give us a silver star for not dying.

Dr. Z:
So I was going to ask you, what does a silver star represent? Obviously when you kill a bunch of Taliban, you get a silver star, and you don’t die. But what does it really represent, or I could Google it probably?

Thom Shea:
It’s the third highest valor award where you have intentionally risked your life to pursue an objective. I got hit three times in the body armor, and two bullets went through my crotch in my pants.

Clay Clark:
Whoa!

Thom Shea:
And my crotch is tight. I don’t know how the hell there are bullet holes there. But, whoa! That was close.

Thom Shea:
And obviously you’re not written up then. Two years later I ended up getting it. But I look back and go, “It was just over.” Everything had just ended, and we decided to see if the bombers could do the job. And thank God they did.

Clay Clark:
Thom, I’m going to tread into an area where, this is not a political show but I do 100% agree with you on something that I’ve seen you Tweet about recently. You were talking about masculinity, and there’s nothing toxic about masculinity. I would love to get your take on this, because I do 100% agree with you. Can you explain what you mean by that?

Thom Shea:
Wow. What a fun question. There are two types of people in the world. Women and men.

Clay Clark:
What? What?

Thom Shea:
That’s it.

Clay Clark:
Okay. Continue.

Thom Shea:
That’s it. There are toxic people. No doubt about it. There are toxic women, and there are toxic men.

Clay Clark:
True.

Thom Shea:
But being masculine is the gift of being a man. Being feminine is the gift of being a woman. And if you met my wife, you’d know that it’s a great gift. And she’s rough, it’s not that she’s dainty. I can’t fathom the political discourse that is considering the white male to be bad, just because he’s a white male. It’s nuts in my mind, and I don’t play the political space well. But I don’t see anything toxic about being a man.

Clay Clark:
Well I just wanted to say, I just was going through your Twitter feed and posts, I 100% agree with you. And I think that, I don’t know, I’ve met a lot of guys who served in the military. And Z, you know I am not one of them.

Dr. Z:
That’s correct.

Clay Clark:
But every one that I have met who has served the military honorably like yourself, every man I’ve met, that man, Z that’s a man’s man. That’s the kind of guy where you go, “That’s why we’re free right now.”

Dr. Z:
Yes.

Clay Clark:
I don’t know that you’d want to have a non man’s man serving the military, saying, “I’m a little bit afraid right now. I’m going to go hide.”

Dr. Z:
Can we work it out?

Clay Clark:
I don’t know if you want the king of rhetoric over there debating with the Taliban going, “Well guys, we can all agree on something can’t we? I mean, maybe? Or just disenfranchise.” It just doesn’t work.

Thom Shea:
Is that the discourse, that masculine means that you do what you said you would do?

Clay Clark:
Oh, see that’s offensive.

Dr. Z:
Oh!

Clay Clark:
Whoa, whoa. Wait a minute. That’s a knowledge bomb. Knowledge bomb right there.

Clay Clark:
You said, “Masculine means that you said that you would-

Thom Shea:
You’d do what you said you would do. We’re there for one purpose, because the politicians couldn’t work it out. And then we go in and do what we do. And I don’t even call that masculine. I think men are masculine and women are feminine. It’s also a hormonal thing, and a body structure thing. I don’t think masculine means, it is the confusion that masculine is being mean. Mean is mean. I don’t know many SEALs that are mean. I don’t. I can’t say I can put in one hand the number of mean spirited SEALs, but they’re tough. And if they say they are going to do something I would just get out of the way, because they are going to find a way.

Clay Clark:
I want to ask you this question about your world view on this, as it relates to taking a life of the enemy and losing one of your own. How do you process that? How do you, when you’re over there and you kill the bad guys and you lose a good guy, how do you emotionally process that?

Thom Shea:
That decision was made before I went over there. I don’t make that decision in the spot moment of, “Is this right to do?” I personally make it before I go over there. My job is to take it to the enemy. So, I’m very unemotional about that. I don’t know if that’s right. I’m sure some psychologist is going to call me up after this and want to make money from me. And I hunted so much and I look at it the same. I’ve already made the decision prior to going. Losing somebody is rough. I think it’s the most emotional. I’ve never lost anybody in my platoons, by the grace of God or whoever. None of my guys even got injured over there, which is very rare. But we had to do many ramp ceremonies of all the dead Marines and Army guys. Like five a week for six months and that takes an emotional toll when you lose one of your own. A sad emotional toll. You don’t take it back and retaliate. I’ve never seen that happen. I’ve never seen a retaliation happen. This shit happens and you don’t retaliate, because your decision making ability when you’re retaliating is very bad. That is broken from you in the SEAL program. They don’t ever let you make retaliatory decisions as a leader.

Clay Clark:
Your schedule as a SEAL, the first four hours of your day as a SEAL versus the first four hours of your day now. What did the first four hours of your day look like when you were a SEAL? What time did you wake up? What did that look like? And then, now that you are no longer an active duty SEAL, what does your schedule look like now during those first four hours?

Thom Shea:
It remains unchanged. I think it was an effective way to live. I wake up around 5:00 and I do a little meditation, or center myself. And then I check in with my family. In the SEAL teams you do that, but you also check in with your team when you arrive at the team. Everybody checks in with each other, and then you work out. And you work out for two hours every morning that you are a SEAL. And I still do that.

Clay Clark:
There it is.

Thom Shea:
So my first four hours are meditate, check in with the team and the family, and then get physical.

Clay Clark:
Let’s get physical. Physical.

Thom Shea:
That’s not a thought bomb.

Clay Clark:
I want to get physical, physical.

Clay Clark:
All right. Do you do like, Zumba?

Dr. Z:
Is it hot yoga?

Clay Clark:
Are you doing Pilates? What are you doing?

Thom Shea:
No. I do difficult things, because I think it’s relevant. I got into ultra marathon running because I couldn’t figure out how to do it, so I keep doing it because I still can’t solve it.

Clay Clark:
Whoa, whoa. Tell me, tell me. Ultra marathon running.

Dr. Z:
Marathons on steroids.

Clay Clark:
Is this like 100 miles? What is this thing?

Thom Shea:
Yeah. 50 or 100 miles.

Clay Clark:
What?

Dr. Z:
What?

Clay Clark:
What?

Dr. Z:
That’s crazy!

Clay Clark:
You get a mega point in heaven for those.

Dr. Z:
Oh, Lord.

Clay Clark:
You get two mega points in heaven-

Dr. Z:
Two mega points.

Clay Clark:
Per ultra marathon. Two mega points. And those can be redeemable for a holy cow. And apparently you just run. Apparently.

Dr. Z:
You run.

Clay Clark:
That right there, that blows my mind.

Dr. Z:
You have a hard time getting up the stairs.

Clay Clark:
That’s a win of the week, win of the year. That’s huge.

Clay Clark:
Z, you have the final question. Final question. You can paint Thom in any corner you want, but he will fight you out of that corner.

Dr. Z:
Thom, one of my favorite questions to ask. It’s kind of my go-to question-

Clay Clark:
To goat-

Dr. Z:
How old are you right now?

Thom Shea:
50.

Dr. Z:
And you started the program to be the SEALs at what age?

Thom Shea:
I think 23.

Dr. Z:
23?

Thom Shea:
I think, yeah. 23.

Dr. Z:
If you could go back to that 22, 23 year old young man-

Clay Clark:
If you could turn back time-

Dr. Z:
If you could do it and you were going to sit down with him today, right now. You could magically be transported back, what would you tell yourself?

Thom Shea:
Do it earlier. Do it when you were 18.

Dr. Z:
Oh, go for the SEALs when you were 18?

Thom Shea:
Don’t wait. Don’t put off anything that sits in your brain like that did for all those years. Even if you never accomplish it, do it.

Dr. Z:
Go for it.

Thom Shea:
Do it earlier.

Dr. Z:
Go for it.

Thom Shea:
Go for it.

Dr. Z:
The dream was in you for a long time, right?

Thom Shea:
It was nagging in my craw from 18. I wanted to be a SEAL and not go to West Point. Dad said, “No.” And then I failed out of West Point.

Dr. Z:
You showed him.

Thom Shea:
And then I’m like, “I got to go do it now.”

Clay Clark:
Yeah. You got to. So, now is it one and done? Because you said you did five times, or your fifth time was the time you got through the program. And you said it’s changed now. So, is it one and done? You only get one shot? Or do they give you a couple?

Thom Shea:
Two. You get two. You get to roll back once.

Clay Clark:
So for our Hispanic listeners, that’s dos.

Dr. Z:
Dos.

Clay Clark:
Dos.

Thom Shea:
Dos.

Clay Clark:
That’s amazing. Well Thom, thank you so much for being on today’s show. I appreciate you so much for taking time. And you have this great book, Unbreakable. And Andrew, for accountability we always like to buy the show while we’re interviewing the guest.

Dr. Z:
Buy the book.

Clay Clark:
Buy the book-

Dr. Z:
While we’re on the show.

Clay Clark:
We always want to buy the book while we’re on the show. We never want to buy the show while we’re on the book.

Dr. Z:
No! That would be the reverse.

Clay Clark:
That doesn’t even make sense.

Dr. Z:
We’re going to buy the book while we’re on the show. So, we’re going to buy the book.

Clay Clark:
And we get a thumbs up.

Dr. Z:
We just purchased your book.

Clay Clark:
And I checked out the e-book version, so I do have to leave an objective review. And I want to just talk about just what a privilege it was to interview you. And again, just thank you so much for being here.

Thom Shea:
Thank you guys for your time. I’m glad that you’re successful. That’s what it was all for.

Dr. Z:
Thanks, Thom. We really appreciate that.

Clay Clark:
Thrivers out there. Z, I wouldn’t go as far as to say if you’re not a bad person you should buy Thom’s book. But I would say, all the good people should go purchase Unbreakable, a Navy SEALs Way of Life.

Dr. Z:
Listen, if you’ve killed some Taliban, you’re off the hook.

Clay Clark:
Yeah. If you’ve killed Taliban you say, “I don’t need that book.”

Dr. Z:
That’s our threshold. If you’ve killed some Talibans in your life, which I mean-

Clay Clark:
I’m sure most of our listeners have.

Dr. Z:
We can take your word for it. We may not be able to verify it.

Clay Clark:
It’s easy.

Dr. Z:
Yeah.

Clay Clark:
But if you haven’t killed any Taliban-

Dr. Z:
If you’ve benefited from the killing of the Taliban.

Clay Clark:
Thank you. Then you should buy the book. And you’ve got to buy it now because what happens is, it’s a procrastination thing.

Dr. Z:
Yeah. You just got to do it right now.

Clay Clark:
If people don’t do it now, they’re not going to do it.

Dr. Z:
Just go on. It’s easy.

Clay Clark:
Just do it. Just hit the-

Dr. Z:
Click. Click. I mean, Andrew for goodness sakes did it in like 12 seconds.

Clay Clark:
Thom, thank you so much. And hopefully you appreciate our high pressure sales techniques.

Thom Shea:
Thanks, gents. I appreciate it.

Clay Clark:
All right. Take care, buddy.

Dr. Z:
Take care. Well done.

Thom Shea:
Yeah. Bye.