Negotiation 101 | A Former FBI Hostage Negotiator Teaches How to Talk Anyone Into or Out of Anything

Audio Transcription

On today’s show, a former FBI hostage negotiator and New York Times bestselling author by the name of Chris Voss teaches field tested principles for effective negotiation, how to get what you want while maintaining effective relationships. Why he who has learned to disagree without being disagreeable has discovered the most valuable secret of negotiation. How to quickly establish rapport and much, much more.

Some shows don’t need a celebrity and a writer to introduce the show. This show does to may eight kids, Koch, created by two different women mode time, million dollar businesses. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the thrive time show.

Do

Welcome back to another exciting edition of the thrive time show on your radio and podcast

download. And on today’s show we are interviewing Chris Voss, who was a former top FBI hostage negotiator, and he’s teaching field tested tools for talking anybody into or out of just about anything. Chris was a member of the New York City joint terrorism task force from 1986 to 2000. Chris Voss is the author of the bestselling book. You probably recognize the title. It’s called never split the difference, negotiating as if your life depended upon it, and he’s a great American. Chris, how are you sir?

I’m really good. Thanks. Happy to be here. I think I’m pumped up just from that introduction.

Well, Chris Voss, I’ve been taking steroids for several weeks to get pumped up to do it profitably, to do justice. So let me ask you this though. You’re, your book is, is now a runaway bestseller and listeners out there that aren’t as familiar with the book and what it’s all about. Could you share with our listeners what kind of nuggets of knowledge they’re going to find in this book?

Yes. Had to get a, get what you want pretty much across the board and still have great relationships with people. Most most people think you can have one of the other great relationship or get what you want. Well, you know, we want people to do both.

So you’re teaching that it’s possible to get what you want and not to destroy relationships in the process. Am I correct?

Yeah, that’s pretty much it. You know the bank robber inside the bank. Um, we got no way to force them to do anything. He’s got to give us what we want and he’s actually going to be happy about it or it might not come up.

I, I can’t possibly begin to describe to our listeners out there verbally what it would be like. But I’d like to get your. I’d like to have you at give it the old college try. What is, what does it feel like to be a hostage negotiator when you are in the middle of an intense negotiation, what’s going on in your, in your mind?

You dialed in, I mean, you’re focused, you’re listening for the subtle nuances that, that tells you the direction it’s gone or you know, you’re listening for the key. We used to say, what’s it, what’s it gonna take to get them to come out? They’ll tell you, but you know, you gotta keep them, keep them talking and get them to tell you. So it’s actually, it’s, it’s a challenge. It’s pretty cool.

What first inspired you to write your book?

Well, when, when I get out, when I left the bureau, we, I started teaching and actually my son was there with me every step of the way, Brandon, so we’re teaching in business schools would teaching hostage negotiation in business schools to Georgetown and Harvard and then then at USC and they were like, if you want people to actually pay attention and figure that you know what you’re talking about, you’ve got to put a book out there. So we finally did.

How long did it take you to sit down and write the book? What have you, what, what did that process look like when you and your son sat down to write this book?

Well, in the end it’s about a. It took us about three years. We went through several writers and if I, if I started with the guy that I finished with, tall Ross, tall Ra’s, a genius business writer, he is a superstar. Like if I’d have been hit with him the whole time, if we’d have been with him the whole time we had told you it was easy. He’s that good but tall, basically vacuumed all the information out of our brain. We, we, uh, we dumped, we had a library of material. We dumped on them tape recordings of every class we’d ever taught video recordings, tons and tons of articles and he sorted it all out and put it into a great book. So on our end it was easy because we had the perfect partner.

Could you explain how we are? Could you share how to spell his name? So there’s got to be somebody. We have so many listeners. We have hundreds of thousands of listeners, many of which are very, very successful. And maybe, uh, we just landed a new client for Mr Tal Ross.

I can tell. Yeah, absolutely. Um, if you’re going to write a business book, he’s your guy and it’s t a h, l Ra’s are, is an Israeli. Every now and then I teach them, I call them tall Ra’s al goal.

So now, now Chris Voss, in your book you wrote, you said he who has learned to disagree without being disagreeable as discovered, the most valuable secret of negotiation. I’d love for you to break this down for our listeners.

Yeah, that’s pretty much it. Most people think that to say, no, you gotta yell at people. You got to call people names and you’ve got to push back hard. That just makes things worse. It’s people are so used to a hard push back that if you basically, if you know how to say no, how, how did not agree and be nice, they’re so startled. They actually want to cooperate and they’ll actually, in many cases make the deal for you.

So how do you draw that out of people?

Yeah. You know what? Real close to what you just keep what you’re doing right now. You keep asking me how questions. How is one of the great secrets to gaining the upper hand in an negotiation and I, if you have offered me a proposal that I can’t do or I don’t want to do, more importantly, I’m. All I’m gonna do is I’m really just going to say, how am I supposed to do that and go silent and lead you solve the problem for me.

Hmm.

Okay. So chapter one of your book is named the new rules, how to become the smartest person in any room. Could you tell us what this chapter is all about?

Yeah. You know, it really starts out with how to, how to say no effectively. Um, the reality is that if you tap into everybody else’s emotional intelligence, actually use your emotional intelligence to tap into their brains. That’s what we’re trying to do. Like if I get you to solve the problem for me, I’m putting your brain power on a problem and I’m doing it in a way that makes you want to collaborate with me. Uh, somebody told me the other night, they read the book, they said this is how do we get together on the same team and then how do we win as a team? Now I’ll get into this negotiation and I’ll recruit you to my team. You won’t really know that. You will just feel like there’s this process where suddenly I’m not the problem, the adversaries, the situation, and if the adversary is the situation and you got to work with me and now I’m tapping into your brain power to work it out,

the adversary, the adversary is the situation. Adversaries the situation. Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with I now. Okay. Now, um, you said emotional intelligence. Last night we had Daniel Goleman on the show. They’re all emotional intelligence. It appears to me that you might have read that book.

I’m familiar with his books, if you will. And one of the, one of the last ones he wrote called focus. And in Netbook goleman talks about three kinds of emotional intelligence, what we call tactical empathy. Goleman will call cognitive empathy. The definition is almost exactly the same. And I don’t know if you’ve had a chance to read the book yet, but you know who he says is absolutely the very best at, at tactical empathy slash cognitive empathy.

I do not know. So she’ll press sociopath’s are the best with what

ad? Using cognitive empathy or tactics.

Okay. Okay, fine. Here is, there isn’t going to do, we’re going to do is you just dropped knowledge bomb one and two, one and a marshall. That’s just in two. So you just said the word sociopath. Can you please indicate what the word sociopath means for the listeners out there?

Yeah, let’s just a call social path. Somebody who’s not emotionally invested in whether you live or die, they’re indifferent, indifferent to the existence of human beings, other human banks in love loving themselves, but uh, they’re indifferent to what happens to you now. They’re absent. One might say that absent a, what they lack is emotion is emotion of guilt now, but that’s all

you know. They could do something to you and not feel any remorse. That doesn’t mean they still don’t have other emotions and cognitive empathy and tactical empathy. It’s all, it’s me understanding where you’re coming from. I don’t have to care about where you’re coming from. For me to understand where you’re coming from and once I completely understand where you’re coming from, if I demonstrate that understanding to you, that has a remarkable effect on you. And that’s why sociopaths love it so much because it’s really easy to apply and it’s actually really low maintenance. If I establish a bond of empathy with you, not sympathy, not, not, not sympathy, but if I establish a bond of empathy with you, my influence over you is extremely powerful.

What is the difference between empathy and sympathy for the listeners out there? I, I’m very familiar with these, these definitions of these words, but I’d love to get you. I’d love to get your take on what it means to you as a former FBI hostage negotiator. What does it, what’s the difference between sympathy?

Sympathy is I, you know, I care about you. I care about what happens to you. Think bad things were happening to you. You know, I, I, I, I feel bad. I, you know, if I could help, I would. Empathy is, I just understand your complete emotional perspective and the fine line on it is that let’s say you and I are in a negotiation. You’re mad at me. I can say an empathy stable to be a man. I could see that. You’re mad at me. I can see you think I’m a jerk. I could see you think I’m treating you unfairly. Most people don’t have the capability of doing that because it can only articulate the only comfortable articulate emotions they agree with.

Okay, so sociopath’s the textbook definition is a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and little bonus and a lack of conscience. So chapter two of your book is called be a mirror. How to quickly establish rapport. I would love for you to walk our listeners, walk our listeners through the process of building report and why, why, why is it so important for people to build rapport?

Walk them through the process. Yeah,

of the building rapport. How do you do it?

You said it’s important. Build rapport.

Yeah.

Well, I’m doing a little bit now. So being a mirror is just repeating a couple of words that you just said. So you know that I’m hearing you.

Um, the, the mirror of the hostage negotiators mirror is different than like the body language and where that body language mirrors. If you lean forward, I got to lean forward, hostage negotiators. Mirror, it’s not that complicated, slide easier, just repeating the words that the other person has said, or maybe you might want to paraphrase it. You’re going to want to repeat in the same meeting, but change the words up now. What? What differences that make, I’m trying to work myself to influence over you and my influence over you is going to be strongest if you feel we have rapport and very much hostage negotiators, Harvard negotiators, business negotiators. We’re interested in our, not only our most powerful influences, but again, the most durable, the lowest maintenance. Once you know, I don’t wanna have to keep you on a short leash. I don’t want to have to talk to you everyday to maintain my influence. If I’ve got what we referred to is trust based influence which flows from rapport. I may only need to talk to you a couple of times a month and I’ve still got influence and we’ll still make deals.

I think, uh, one of the things you’re talking about right now that it blows my mind and um, uh, I don’t know. You probably have my job is to do research about you. I don’t expect you have to have done any research about me, but if you do go to Dj connection.com, that was one of the first companies I started and ultimately sold, but we, it was before I sold it was one of America’s largest wedding entertainment companies and a bride to be would come in, you know, to want to get the entertainment for her wedding and essentially, you know, you, I’m sure Chris, you’ve been to weddings where the deep, where the Dj was terrible, you know, the band is awful. It doesn’t matter how good the food is. People leave, you know, and so my job was to meet with the bride and the groom and to figure out what they wanted their wedding reception to look like. It was crazy as we were in Tulsa, Oklahoma where we were based and some brides would say, I want to have my wedding outside and I’m okay. Great. What day? July third. And Chris Voss, I’m sure you’ve been to a. have you ever been to Oklahoma before, Chris?

It’s kind of tough in July, isn’t it?

It’s like 100 degrees and I remember my first or second meeting me, the first five or so marshall, I told the bride, I don’t think you want to do that because it’s so hot. The cake is going to melt. I don’t know if that’s a move, you know, put the bride would ask, I want to have my wedding in July. What do you think? And I used to tell people, I don’t know if that’s a good move, and then I would get yelled at. They wouldn’t book with me. They said they disagreed with me, whatever. And over time I had to learn this mirror concept to say, ah, let me ask you this July. What do you think would be the best thing? What? What do you think? Tell me what you think and and Chris, but it took me a lot of rejections to learn this idea of mirroring and establishing rapport. Where do most people get this wrong? By default? Where do most people need to change?

Most people think that they, they have to talk first and they got to make their case. I mean world by and to make our case, no one, one friend of mine was telling me what to negotiation course and he said the number one objective was to make sure they understood other side of under knows where you’re coming from, what both people follow that. Then nobody’s paying attention to the other guy. You know the guy or Gal. All they’re doing is talking at the other person trying to make their case, and really that’s where most of it breaks down. It’s a first thing. The second thing is most people are yes. Addicts. That’s a whole nother topic.

Yes. Addicts, yes. Addicts. Could you define just briefly what are you best at? What you’re yes. Addict. Looks like

you’re talking to somebody. They’re making a case to you and go, does that make sense? And you’re scared to say yes because it did make sense you, but you have problems with what they just said and you also know if you say yes to, did that make sense? They’re going to continue to Yammer at you for another 15 minutes and then they’re gonna stop and they’re going to say, does that make sense? Now? Everything made sense. You didn’t happen to agree with it or what they said was an important is what you said, but people are constantly seeking. Yes, in one sense or another, just so they can keep talking and then when they get to the end, they think they’ve talked you into something when in fact you know it made sense you that didn’t mean you agreed.

Yeah. Chapter eight of your book, Chris Voss, you write this book. This chapter of this book is titled Guarantee Execution, how to spot the liars and to ensure follow through from everyone else. Talk to me about the power of this chapter and what law, what readers can find in the book.

Well, whether the person you’re dealing with is lion or whether they just haven’t thought things through that you got the same problem. There’s no implementation there. We, you know, we, we believe that yes is nothing without how I mean yes, it’s nothing entirely. You got to get into how so? If somebody’s lying to you and then you say, well, how’s this going to move forward? How’s this going to happen? What are we going to do next? They’re going to go dead silent because they know they were lying and they haven’t thought it through. They have no idea you, you call them right out there. They’ll go dead silent there. You run into every bit as much or more of the same problem with someone who figures all we need is yes, and things are going to magically appear at all work APP. Some, you know, gandalf would come by and wave a magic wand that everything is going to have gandalf.

He’s coming by. Yeah. And uh, they haven’t thought anything through either. Their of implementation might be completely different in your vision and implementation or even what the agreement means. So when you go, how’s this going to happen? How are we going to keep on track? How are we going to fix things when we get off track? They’ll either go dead silent and really go, well, it didn’t just happen. It will be wonderful. It’d be lovely either way. You’re looking at a train wreck and you, you got to know each one in advance so that it doesn’t turn into a trailer.

Chapter nine of your book is called bargain hard. Had to get your price. I’d love for you to share about this chapter and why you wrote it.

I gotta tell you something that’s the best part. We get the best bargaining system on the planet. I mean, it’s slaughters that you get into bare knuckle bargaining. This slaughters anything else out there? It’s slow us for counter offer. It’s slaughters high anchored slaughters everything. We actually bought it from a guy learned it from a guy named Mike Ackerman, Mike, and we call it the ackerman method. And Mike taught it to us. Uh, when I was a hostage negotiating, we were bargaining and kidnapping and it’s a systematic approach, you know, barring all bargaining takes place in about three rounds, you know, most people sit down and negotiation and think it’s going to get finished in one round that it never is. It’s usually three rounds and there was, we calculated and advance what our starting point is going to be. And then what are incremental changes are, and there’s psychological aspects, each one of the incremental changes, I mean the other side feels like to get to the very end before you get there because you psychologically positioning them where they feel like they got everything they could have gotten and you made a work so hard in the process, they’re actually relieved it’s over, which is going to guarantee your x execution because they’re not going to want to do it again.

So it’s a great bargaining system. And then people started out using the ackerman method. When they got a bargain, they usually never even get to the third phase. They usually have the deal cut by no later than the second phase and then made even more money than they expected.

I strongly agree with the statement you wrote your book where you said, another simple rule is when you are verbally assaulted, do not counteract. Instead disarm your counterpart by asking a calibrated question, can you break down the power of this idea? This is hot. It is huge.

Yeah. Well basically calibrated questions or refined set of open ended questions. You know the open ended questions, everybody knows or who, what, when, where, why, and how. Right, so let’s cut them down to just a house in the woods. There’s great power in deference and we’re going to want to start a question with either how or what, because people love to be asked how people love to be asked what to do. Even when they just told you what to do. Somebody could lay out to you exactly the accident you want to take and you will look at him and go like, you know how much supposed to do that? What do you want me to do? And it’s just ridiculous how much you gain the upper hand on somebody and since they feel in control, they don’t know that based on how you’ve calibrated that question, you’ve actually kind of box the minute and burden them with all the problems that they’re the ones that are probably created.

Chris, at the time of this recording, how old are you right now? I am days away from 61 61. It is. So if you could go back and edit, let’s say the 31 years old, let’s go back to eight slash 31. What, what advice would you have for the younger version of yourself?

You don’t be just a little nicer. Don’t, don’t change compromising your principles, you know, don’t take any different positions. And it took just be a little nicer about it. Um, you know, you take a couple of miles an hour off your fastball, don’t come so hard at people as an and you’ll get much farther by, by being a little too. I, you know, I was always pretty direct, pretty blunt. I W I was blunt enough, the one time I had a colleague say dealing with you is like getting hit in the face with a brick. Just be a little nicer and you end up with fewer fights, which means you get your way sooner.

Now, Chris Voss, uh, this next notable quotable from your book, it says, it all starts with the universally applicable premise that people want to be understood and accepted. Listening is the cheapest, yet most effective concession we can make to get there by listening intensely and negotiator. Did demonstrates negotiator demonstrates the up to that point and the court. Can you. Can you break down why? What it means to listen intensely?

Yeah. You know, it’s just, it’s really here in the essence of where somebody’s coming from, a feeding it back to him in on every deal. There’s something more important emotionally to the person. Then the deal, I realized that sounds really stupid, but you know, we’ve learned money is, is a substitute for emotional compensation and so I’m like, all right, if what you’re after is some kind of emotional satisfaction, the first of which might be being heard out, I’m going to hear you out for some of the ledge. You know I’ve heard you out because it’s pretty good chance it’s not going to cost me a dime if I do that. And so did we had this intense desire to be understood. We all worked for bosses that always heard us out and never did what we asked them to do, but we thought, you know what? My boss of mine, they always hear me out. I love working for that guy or that Gal. I mean it’s. It’s a powerful intangible that I’ve taken advantage of as often as I can.

You wrote by listening intensely and negotiator demonstrates empathy and shows a sincere desire to better understand what the other side is experiencing. You also went on to write in, never split the difference, but neither one nor needs are where we start. It begins with listening, making it all about the other one, validating their emotions and creating enough trust and safety for a real conversation. To begin, for somebody out there who’s sincerely listening and say, you know what? I struggle to ever create enough sincere trust with people. What advice would you give? What’s what was the starting point?

Well, if you go back to my original definition of empathy, which is neither agreement nor disagreement, then you can hear anybody out if as long as it doesn’t require you to either agree or disagree, it doesn’t matter what their position is and that’s what begins to develop this bond is this influence ability of trust and rapport and empathy and predictability, and it’s it’s a really tiny little line of not agreeing and not disagreeing and now you’re unlimited. If you need to agree to hear somebody out, that’s where people get into trouble and that’s why they they so many of these conversations are frustrated because, well, I can’t hear you out because that means I can run an agree or I have to agree to hear you. Now take that away and your power to negotiate kind of becomes unlimited. Limitless.

I have a four final questions for you. One from Marshall and one from Steve Currington. My first question for you is, what book or books would you recommend for all the entrepreneurs out there? In addition, obviously to your own, never split the difference. Is there one or two books you’d recommend for all of our listeners, all of our entrepreneurial business owner or at least soon to be or want to be business owners out there listening?

Yeah. All right, so a couple of different ones for a couple of different reasons. Eric Barker’s book called Barking up. The wrong tree is a science of success and Eric did a fantastic job just looking at success at all levels and he’s a regular guy who right from a regular guy standpoint and if, if his book would come out while I was still teaching in the, in the different business schools that have made his book signed reading, it’s got phenomenal stuff across the board. Um, if you’re a business leader, the culture code by Daniel Coyle is about how to make a great culture within your business and how the a great culture is necessary to succeed. Um, he also wrote the talent code if you want to get better as a performer and it’s very much about how to bring out your maximum abilities and how, how would you know, just how to practice and how to get better faster. He talks a lot about accelerated learning. Next question. I’m gonna. Throw one more out. Did skype cut out real quick. Sorry about that. That’s right. The rise of Superman by Kotler. Phenomenal book about the science of flow in. No matter what you’re doing, if you want to succeed, you got to get into flow. You got to get into the zone and Kotler’s book is fantastic.

How do you spend the first four hours of every day?

Well, you know, I try to tune my brain up into a positive frame of mind, which, you know, it’s become a cliche in wwe. I live in southern California. I’m not from southern California. You know, being grateful is, you know, everybody in southern California, I’m so grateful, but in reality that help you perform throughout the day. It’s one, it’s one of the ways ferris says when the morning when the day you’re going to win, if you’re at a positive frame of mind, if you’re in a gratitude state of mind, and then it’s a, for me, my most creative time, if I want to create material, it’s, it’s most likely in the morning. So I get, I get the brain tuned up and in a positive frame of mind, which I’m smarter, more effective and, and then I’m trying to get some good stuff done early in the morning. What time do you wake up? I like about seven and a half hours sleep and it depends upon what time zone I was in the night before. Ideally I’m up at six.

Got It. Okay. Marshall Morris, I give you the floor final hot question you have for Mr. Chris [inaudible] and Steve Currington, the incredible show sponsor. You get the last word there. So Marshall would, he got. So we have listeners all around the world and they’re taking all of the action items away from, from what you’re talking about here on the episode in, and I encourage them to go to go get the book if they, if they want to learn more. For, for all of the listeners that are looking to take away one action step for implementing in maybe practicing some of the things that you’re talking about here, how would you encourage somebody to get good at negotiating without having a bounty full amount of negotiating scenarios? How do you begin to implement this and practices?

Last? Eggs practice gives you a high stakes results, so when your just your ordinary, everyday conversations start making it a point to hear the other side out. If the conversation doesn’t matter that it’s not gonna hurt you to hear about out before you have your say, so just practice that a little bit. You kind of be astonished at how much better your conversations go. Plus it will give you a lot of practice in areas. It’s not going to cost you any money.

Good stuff right there. Steve Currington, what’s your hot question for Mr Chris Voss? I have to one where in socal?

Uh, West Hollywood.

Oh, okay. Gotcha. Cool. That’s my favorite place to go. I’ve got my cars in Huntington beach right now and I’m going there in a week. He’s a Lamborghini driver and he makes the, he is like a Caracalla Chris. He’s part of a car club and they drive all curtailed. He goes out there to southern California. I love southern California, so I’d love love. So anyway, when I hear so, you know, there’s a bunch of us out there, but uh, the other thing, I’m, I’m captivated

by the interview and I’m listening and so I don’t know how you might be able to answer this, but I would imagine that you’ve had a. do you think you’ve had a lot of training in, I guess your speaking ability because I think a lot of people discount when I listened to you. You speak very slowly, you speak very clearly. Is that a skill that you picked up when your FBI hostage negotiator? Is that something that you’ve refined over time? Because I think for a lot of people like myself, I’m, you know, I’m a fast talker, but um, I’d really like to learn that. How to you say, listen and slow down because I think throughout the entire interview that’s what’s kind of captivating because you’re, you’re very precise, very concise. And very slow. So did, did you learn that over the years? Do you feel like he or she continued to improve that? Can you talk about that a little bit?

Yeah, they’ve always, always worked at that. Always been trying to continue to approve, pick pickup hands wherever I can. And as a hostage negotiator we focused a lot on how you said things because if how I say it, I can begin to affect your mental state of mind before I’ve even finished the sentence. So I’m going to get started on that and I’m gonna change things in different ways and change my tone of voice if nothing else, just to help you pay attention. So I’m not boring.

Hmm.

I’m standing back the entire time of clay knows because I’m looking at him. I’m staring at clay like during the entire interview and I’m doing these like explosions of the because I’m like, I literally wanted to say he’s inside your head right now, clay. Like when you asked about how you would demonstrate empathy and, and uh, and you said you’re doing it right now. And I was like, oh my God, take my wallet. Here you go sir. So anyway, I really enjoyed listening to you and uh, and uh, thanks for answering

Chris, I appreciate you, uh, being on today’s show more than, you know, if you’re in the Tulsa, Oklahoma area, we have about a 20,000 square foot facility there where we have conferences and we coach clients and we would love to, uh, to meet you. But again, thank you for taking time out of your schedule to be on the show.

My pleasure. It’s really fast. It was fun talking to you guys.

Well, you have a blessed evening and if I ever need someone to negotiate on my behalf, I am calling you sir.

The last bit of information mean we’ve got a newsletter. Can we tell people about. Absolutely. Yeah, we put it out once a week. It comes out on Tuesday mornings and it’s short and sweet and concise, which I think is one of the big advantages because some people’s newsletters, there’s so many choices. You don’t know what to read and it’s free. It’s complimentary. I’d a former colleague and the federal government used to love to say if it’s free, I’ll take three. So, uh, and, and it’s a gateway to everything that we teach. The name of the newsletter is called the edge comes out on Tuesday mornings. All you got to do to sign up as a text to sign up function. You send the message, FBI empathy, all one word only. You spell check, put a space between FBI and empathy and the text that message to the number two, two, eight, 28, and it’s 22, eight, 28. If you sent the message in all one word, you’ll get a dialogue box back. Then I’ll ask you to sign up to the gateway to everything that we have. It’s a gateway to the website. We got announcements about new material. If we’re trained in someplace, tells people about where the training has taken place. Place. It’s a, it’s a gateway to everything we have.

I want you to repeat that one more time because someone out there is trying to write this down. We have to listeners and listen while they drive. So it’s pulling over right now like, oh my gosh, you got to pull over. I got. Can you repeat again the message we’re supposed to text in the number. We’re supposed to text

it too. Sure. The message to text his FBI, empathy, emp a t h y. make it all one word. Don’t let your autocorrect put a space between FBI and empathy and send the message. FBI empathy, all one word to the number. Twenty two eight, 28 and it’s two, two, eight, 28.

Chris, I appreciate you so much. Hope you have a wonderful holiday season and uh, we are blessed to know you sir.

Thank you very much. Same to you.

Take care. Thanks Chris Voss.